h1

Too progressed to know

07/02/2010

While I was going through my link/search logs the other day, I happened upon a post on a guild form (which I obviously won’t link) to my blog.  Most of it was fairly normal linking behavior, but something caught my eye.

“Of course, her Paladin’s gear is pretty INsane (sic) and she is working on HMs so take it in that context.”

This isn’t the first comment in regards to my gear that I’ve found calling into question my judgment on things.  In fact, it is a fairly regular practice for those trying to argue against my point of view to point out my progression, as if I were some sort of computer that wipes clean the files on normal fights when I start regularly downing hardmodes to save memory space.  Seeing as it -is- prevalent when people disagree with me, I really have to ask myself why this is the case.  I’m certainly not going to dismiss out of hand a repeated pattern.

I try very hard to make sure the things I write about are very firmly grounded in logic and reason.  Nearly every time I write about something that I am trying to show as fact, I comment that I would love some feedback explaining where I went wrong if I did; as of yet, I haven’t gotten anything back.  When someone disagrees with me and I ask them to prove it, I’m usually met with anecdotes (which any scientist can tell you isn’t evidence) or else with silence.  Well, or personal attacks.  (I have vivid memories about a commenter telling me I lack social skills.  I still laugh over that one!)

But -is- it reasonable to think that what I say loses validity with those not as progressed in the end game?  Do the conclusions I come to not hold as true for those still working their way through normal ICC because I’m not currently running that content?

The only reasonable answer I can come to is “no.”

I haven’t forgotten those first steps into the raid, wearing lesser gear than many of the naysayers and lacking the buff altogether.  I still have vivid memories of praying for fewer Marks on normal Saurfang when he was the last boss you could kill.  My teeth still ache from those long days trying to get any of the ToC hardmodes down and let’s not even discusses the wrinkles I gained from trying to learn to time Divine Sacrifice without getting myself killed those long months (years?) ago.

Math is math.  Any decent Mad Scientist will test their theories with multiple variables to make sure it works.  Would it be better if I were 11/12 regular ICC?  Would the math somehow be more applicable?  It is irrational to think so.  When I talk about metagems, the reasons behind some choices being far better than others work across the spectrum.  When there are exceptions, I say so.  It isn’t a matter of my progression being “kept in context.”  In fact, my progression has -nothing to do with it.-  Trying to imply that my gear should make 2+2 -not- equal 4 is just a strawman argument, from what I can see.

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20 comments

  1. I think that part of the issue is that a lot of comments I used to read on EJ, for example, were based on top-of-the-line gear in truly endgame raids like SWP. So I’d discount a lot of it, myself.

    Not all holy paladins, sadly, already have 2pc T10, although there’s VERY little excuse not to, these days. Thus, strategies that include using Divine Illumination as a Divine Plea offset, for example, is “out of people’s league”. Assuming proper raid buffs in a post? Well, a lot of people don’t get it or don’t min/max the way some of us do.

    I ABSOLUTELY do not think your gear or experience should warrant that kind of thinking; I’ve never come across anything on your blog (that I can think of) that would alienate people.

    But from past experience, having been “middle tier, striving to gtfo of BT”, I can see why it’s possible some people would discount either of our posts just based on our gear and experience.

    Their loss, though. 😛


    • I’d be totally boggled about how any paladin doesn’t have 2T10 and yet raids or isn’t working towards the badges to get it… It’s one thing to say “I don’t have 2T10 yet, but I’ll keep this in mind for when I do.” It’s another to say “I don’t have 2T10 yet, so what this person is saying is obviously elitist and doesn’t apply to me.”

      We’re not really talking about something that’s “out of their league.” I don’t do my theorycrafting assuming everyone has Val’anyr or anything. LOL Heck, I’m trying to think of anything I’ve really written about that could be considered out of a new healer’s league…


  2. I don’t understand how anyone could put a stigma on “too much” progression… if you are now working on HM LK, that means you already worked on regular LK.

    The things you’ve stressed the most for theorycrafting and gameplay are true at all levels of raiding, as well. (Unless there’s a super-secret meta-gem you get from killing the LK that I’m in the dark about.) The information you present isn’t tier-specific, it’s for healers at all levels, and quite possibly helps the beginners more than the experienced.

    Anyways, I’ve noticed a certain amount of bitterness that raiders pre-LK seem to have for Kingslayers, “they didn’t earn it”. I feel like the LK fight has drawn a progression line clearly at the end of Wrath, and the Casual vs. Hardcore resentment has finally blistered open and oozes jealousy.

    It’s sad, considering there are raid lockouts for everyone. What top guilds are doing with theirs can’t hurt me… but it could help me, if I let it.


    • I’ve considered it being just sour grapes, but it has been -really- prevalent. Kinda funny, as my group raids less than some self-described “casuals.” LOL


  3. I don’t think that’s the argument actually. Of course the math is still correct. However, the importance of that math may not be as valid when one isn’t as progressed.

    For instance, let’s go back to that debate we were having months ago about meta gems. Of course your math was correct, and I never really doubted it. However, it’s not actually a big deal. I could run the comment I’m currently in with no gems and no enchants and totally pantsless, and I would still be okay.

    However, if I were doing “edge” content, such as hard modes, or maybe even just ICC without the buff, I would need to eke out every individual spellpower point.

    It’s basically the difference between following a general rule of thumb about how to gear, and having to really concern yourself with each individual point of each stat.

    It’s definitely NOT that your arguments and math aren’t valid for some other level. It’s just that they aren’t as crucial at lower progression levels. It’s sort of like learning calculus in an effort to balance my checkbook.


    • See, I think a lot of this is a sort of mental block to what “edge content” is. I know groups that haven’t downed Sindragosa yet. To them, Sindy is “edge content,” so they should be gearing/gemming/yadda yadda to beat her. If your group -never- wipes on content without being specced correctly, then I suppose it doesn’t matter. But what compelling reason can there be when you haven’t cleared all of ICC to not be at the top of your game?

      In your case, what if being gemmed to maximize your throughput while maintaining regen could have saved your group just one wipe. Wouldn’t that be worth it? Now consider how much easier it would be with an -entire raid- gemmed correctly. Fewer wipes, faster kills… I just don’t see any good reason at all for not doing the small things that you can to facilitate that.


      • Unfortunately, a prevalent attitude (in my observation) amongst people who are a bit behind is that people should be allowed to ‘do it wrong’, since they are more ‘casual’.
        My guild is one of those ‘stuck on Sindy’. and I see this horrible attitude in many (but not all) guildies. It’s rather frustrating.


  4. Oh but i want to add to that, that most of the advice you give, Codi, is very non-tier specific, and would apply to anyone at any progression level. I mean that. But when we get into the very specific theorycrafting numbers about smaller amounts here and there of stats, it’s not as crucial for someone who is overgeared for the content they’re in anyway. My gear is so vastly superior to the content I’m running for whatever reason, that I’m thinking about gemming for agility just for shits and giggles.


  5. I recently came across a very uninformed and somewhat misguided Holy paladin. Awful talent build, awful gems and to be completely blunt about it, awful advice to others on her blog.

    I tried to let her see things from my perspective, as I’ve learned a LOT the past few months. I’ve tried going for a FoL spec and it didn’t work out. I’m now running with a cookie-cutter Holy Light spec. I know both ends of it. I’m not raiding heroic modes, heck, I still have Sindragosa and LK to go. I don’t raid 25 mans regularly.

    Is my perspective any less valid than that of a Holy paladin raiding 25 man heroic LK? I don’t think so. She disagreed, stating that what she was doing was fine for the content she was running. I can’t exactly disagree there, if it works for you then go ahead. But here’s the catch. If I give advice to somebody, it’s because I know they can really use it. It’s not because I want to prove them wrong. It’s because I think, even though they’re performing well enough, they could be performing even better.

    I think that’s all there is to it. Your advice generally hits the spot for all gear levels as far as I’m concerned. It’s not a matter of who’s wrong or right, but rather the difference between performing great or just good enough.


    • I have real issues with someone saying “it works for me.” That doesn’t mean that making the suggested changes won’t make it -better.- (As you’ve seen! :D)


  6. I could see the above statement being said in quotes spoken or typed in a positive light or a negative light.

    I would have to agree with a lot of what the others have suggested. The problem is that Blizzard has tried so hard to make raiding available to everyone and casuals who would normally not have gotten into it that are taking that leap into raiding. Often times, when they may not be ready for it.

    The gear has become so easy to obtain and finding a decent spec is as easy as inspecting someone in Dalaran or stalking someone on the Armory. People go through those motions and think “I’m ready to raid.” Then they apply to guilds, like yours and mine (and mind you, you’re more progressed than I right now) and have never seen Elitist Jerks or MMO-Champion or things like that.

    So they go from the extreme of no experience to websites that talk to you like you have already done it or should be doing said things and when they realize they can’t, because they don’t have that gear in question to pull off those things, it turns into a nasty cycle.

    I think there are really good “starter” guilds that can impart the ways of the raider on new raiders that need the experience and once they have been there long enough, move on to bigger guilds. The same could be said for blogs, like ours. We could easily cater to the new player and to the experienced one. If someone doesn’t feel EJ is speaking to them, we can fill that role.

    It doesn’t have to be so black and white. Kind of long winded, I know, but I had to get that off my chest. From what I have read of your blog, I don’t feel you leave anybody out. I would like to think that what I have created so far on DA and so forth wouldn’t do that, either.

    Which reminds me, put me in your blogroll, bubbe!


    • OMAN YOU KNOW WHERE I LIVE!

      Allow me to link you before you drive over and murder me in my sleep. ;D


      • I wouldn’t be foolish enough to do it and get blood on my hands. I’d tip my Chinese delivery driver extra money to make a stop. You know they love me! 🙂


  7. […] Codi was talking about how she’s basically been accused of being an elitist in terms of stuff she says on her blog and how, because she’s so advanced, people have used that as a caveat when it comes to taking her advice. […]


  8. I think a lot of people also like to justify that they just aren’t as good as certain players (ie yourself in this case). It’s easy to say “Oh, this player is in so-and-so gear and that’s why they’re completely wtfpwning me” instead of looking at yourself as to why you’re not measuring up.

    This will eventually segue into “Oh this person raids much more than I do” into “Oh this person has no life” into “Oh I am an amazing player and an amazing person irl with my high class job and beautiful blonde, blue eyed children and trophy husband/wife”.

    But you are right on. There is no difference between playstyle in normal modes and hard modes as well as being undergeared to being overgeared. You may have to cast more/less depending on the situation, but the math remains the same as does the “rotations”.


  9. I would like to think that these are factors that Blizzard is trying to eliminate and has started to create, to try and make the gap between “us” and “them” that much smaller.

    People had mixed reactions when you could badge farm and get the T9 and then you could sort of do it on a smaller scale with the T10. You couldn’t use the argument of “Well, if I had that gear, I could do those numbers.” You can get that gear. It may take longer, but it’s possible.

    There was a race issue. “Well, if I were an Orc, I would have that damage buff, too.” Cool, you can pay $15 and be that advantageous race. Talent specs are so available now – you can inspect people, you can Armory them, it’s all at your fingertips.

    I see it becoming more about that in Cataclsym. I see that by making people more visibly the same and by homogenizing some of the talents and spells, it creates a sort of surface equality that I think will make the person’s playstyle really stand out. All of those little factors that are used now to explain why someone is doing better may not be as prominent in the expansion.

    And I look forward to that. I think it will create more emphasis on the skill and the person behind the screen and I think that’s what this past expansion really lacked, to some degree and it would be nice to see that make a comeback.


    • I’m not sure that Blizzard can even do anything to truly combat the “us” and “them” that was see in WoW. There will always be stratification when it comes to raiding and I can’t see any of the homogenization helping with that.

      One interesting thing to me, is that they want to move away from the “heal spam” style we’ve had in WotLK, but I think their memories are too short in that regard. I remember healing BT and boy did I spam heals there, too! Maybe they’ll succeed in making healing more about choices and skill this time, but I’m not going to hold my breath. LOL


  10. Coming from a (tragically) casual perspective, I read your blog because I -want- to be the best I can. Yeah, there’s some things I have to set aside- for example, I only recently got 2pt10, and I got the icky crit gloves out of VoA, which is not ideal- but I dunno. What’s the point of reading blogs of people more progressed, better geared, and probably better players than you, if you’re not there to learn? Yeah, you do hard modes. I haven’t even SEEN the Lich King and I would whoop for joy just to down Sindragosa at this point. Hell, I’d whoop for joy just to get a stable raid group! But that doesn’t mean I don’t want to keep up to date, yes?


    • I would really like to applaud you for that. 😀 I think people get really lost in the idea trying to get a “BiS list” and then get frustrated when they can’t get those items. Min/maxing is always about maximizing with what you have available to minimize your weaknesses. Here’s hoping you find yourself an awesome raiding group so you can use your knowledge more fully!


  11. I remember linking a post from Derevka’s Tales of a Priest blog to my own guild forum, and noting that she was working on Sindy heroic – we were only on Sindy normal at the time.

    My reasoning was that this would show that the blog was from someone who knew their stuff – and who had considerable raiding experience. I am a relatively new raider – my experience starts with TOGC, and nothing much before. That’s why my experience and knowledge needs to be improved with not only practice, but with lots of reading. And why I know that any observation I might have, or suggestion, might be given greater weight if I reference the credentials of a more experienced raider.



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